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    Reblogged from nijimei  2,801 notes

    rosalarian:

    rosalarian:

    When I say people want to see more diversity in stories, no, I really don’t mean different stories about straight white dudes. I really, really don’t mean that at all. This isn’t about types of stories being told. This is specifically about people. I’m not letting you make this about something else. You are not hijacking this message to make sure we’re still talking about straight white dudes.

    The saga continues:

    This made me actually sputter with frustration. Saliva exited my mouth. Why do you think your opinion SHOULD matter on this subject? Why should your opinion be given the same weight over people who are actually living these experiences? Especially when my original point was about how minorities rarely get to tell their own stories. I’ve been really patient with him but he’s taken up way too much of my time and he’s still missing the point like he’s trying to actively avoid it.

    Reblogged from thorsies  83,432 notes

    divascreech:

    "not every show needs queer characters"

    well not every show needs 25 straight white carbon copies of the same characters from every other show ever aired in the history of television yet here we are with ten thousand of you on tv and one of me if I’m lucky

    how dare you eat a feast, throw me a bone while I’m starving, and then tell me to be happy that I’m finally equal to you you spoiled entitled brat

    On this website, anytime two males get close they're considered gay. Jon and Sherlock. Dean and Cas for example. What's worse is when people do this, imo, to real people including figure skaters (which during the Olympics did happen and happened to be people I actually know) and for example, the post with (idk if you saw this) the soldier falling asleep next to the firefighter on a subway (or something like that). As for Carol, they certainly flirt. The writers and actors joke about it. As for

    [cont.] Beth, I was saying that’s up in the air because some people think it’s a thing, some people think it isn’t. When I said “gay for Rick” I didn’t mean he’s not gay (if he is), I mean, if he is gay, I don’t see him having any sexual interest in Rick which maybe I misinterpreted but I thought you were stating. That’s true that he hasn’t talked about a girlfriend which is a good point. He also hasn’t talked about a lot of things except for his brother did drugs and his dad was abusive so he would run

    [cont.] off. And that is a good point too, if he was gay, he would not feel secure with his upbringing being about “masculinity”. I never said I thought he was straight. I think he’s asexual, although bi could be possible too. I just personally do not see him as gay but that’s me.

    Mmk, top to bottom- you’re barking up the wrong tree if you’re coming at me suggesting that saying John and Sherlock are in love is fandom delusion. I have thought John Watson and Sherlock Holmes were gay since I read the books when I was twelve years old, and the majority of posts in my lgbt in media tag are related to Sherlock and its cast and crew- and given the excellent metatextual analysis fans have done since S3 ended, I’m firmly on board the “it’s canon and it’s going to be canon by the end of the fifth season” train. I might recommend loudest-subtext-in-television if you wanted to look into some of the excellent whys as to John/Sherlock as a couple, as they have been considered by many scholars for more than a hundred years.

    Also, real-person/celeb headcanons are popular and hotly debated both, and I get why some people don’t like them; personally I don’t see the harm if they aren’t harassing people in their daily lives or being disrespectful to their families. I mean, I love Sean and I respect his marriage and his family, but I still enjoy the idea of Flandus getting it on on steamy nights in Tokyo. That’s not everyone’s cup of tea and that’s understandable so I don’t really care to argue on that point because I get both sides of it very well.

    I also think it’s important you realize that “on this website” are a lot of teens who are struggling with and coming to terms with their own sexualities, as well as plenty of adults who have already embraced them. This new generation is a thousand times more informed than our parents will ever be about gender and sexuality issues, so of course we’re going to see the potential for relationships where straight people in their living rooms might not. We queers come at things, naturally, from an invested perspective, living off the breadcrumbs of subtext. Men are still not allowed to be couples in the actual media in most cases, gay characters fitting mostly very narrow specifications- and the fact that youth and fandom are taking hold of this heteronormative dominance in our media and turning it on its head should be celebrated, not reviled. No one is taking your “bromances” away from you because you still get to enjoy that no-homo heteronormativity in your actual shows, so you don’t need to feel threatened by it. Let us queers grasp at our slim representation, let us look for it in the cracks you turned away from and filled with your own suppositions, let us take every piece of media we consume and make it the gayest thing ever. Because we can, because we want it, because we’ve earned the right to enjoy our television however we see fit.


    But you’re talking about The Walking Dead.

    If you could point me to a line in the dialogue that was from Daryl, to Carol, intended flirtatiously, I would certainly love to know it because I can’t think of one. That said, I don’t have beef with Carol/Daryl shippers, it’s just not my jam because I see his relationship with Carol as more familial, as is his relationship with Beth, because like I said I interpret all of his relationships with female characters as non-sexual because I think he’s hella gay like hella hella gay.

    Personally, I DO think Daryl has an interest in Rick. I think his gayness is not theory but fact, that Daryl’s feelings for Rick could narrowly be open to interpretation, and that Rickyl as a romantic ship coming to fruition in the show is just headcanoning because I think Rick is intended to be straight in the show. That’s my scale of seriousness about these things— from “I believe this” to “I think this” to “I can dream, can’t I”. But I mean… I’ve kind of listed all of the reasons why I think Daryl is romantically interested in Rick at this point, and I think they’re certainly valid. You’re getting into headcanon space and why would you be bothered by the idea of Daryl having a romantic interest in Rick? He has a stronger connection with him than he does with Carol or Beth, and with no directly stated sexuality, there’s no reason to think the ship is invalid.

    I encourage you to read my meta on Daryl’s sexuality if you haven’t already, because I address a couple things you’re saying in here— why I 900% do not think he is attracted to women, so I don’t think he’s bi; why I don’t think he is intended to be asexual— although I do want to make clear that I respect that as a death-of-the-author reading and it only seems iffy for me when you take Norman into account, and otherwise I’m totally down with an asexual homoromantic reading— and most directly, why I think he’s gay.

    And you don’t. I mean, that’s you, like you said. If you want to be sure of it, that’s fine, though I can’t fathom watching the show and reading Daryl as anything but gay. To me, it is nakedly obvious, and I personally do in all actuality think Daryl is intended to be written as and quietly played as a gay character, and I will stick to that until I’m proven otherwise, but I don’t have beef with someone who thinks otherwise as long as they consider it with equal seriousness as straight - I just think they’re missing out.

    I appreciate the calmness of your tone and your respectful acknowledgement of my points, because that is important in discourse and these issues go far beyond television and affect people’s real lives and identities. Thanks for maintaining this level of decorum and I appreciate too you doing it off-anon so we can seem more civil about it.

    Gay until proven straight is not better. I think what I find off putting is label a character's sexuality when he has show no inclination one way or the other, that has been actually reluctant to almost any form of intimacy, until the last episodes with Beth. Daryl is such a weird animal in tv that reduce all his complexities to sexuality is annoying.
    Anonymous

    Firstly, I think if a lot of people took a “gay until proven straight” perspective for a week or so when they consumed media and interacted with people, it would teach them a LOT about how the world works and how damaging they have been by assuming straightness so far in their lives. That said.

    I don’t think he’s gay until proven straight, I clearly stated that I made my conclusions based on the evidence, and the evidence given has made me think that he is gay. Are you sending messages like this to people who think Daryl is straight? Are you sending messages like this to Beth/Daryl shippers or to Carol/Daryl shippers?

    Daryl’s had moments of intimacy with a lot of characters and none of it has been overtly sexual. His interactions with Beth were all born out of absolute emotional devastation; this close to giving up on everything, but he focused all his attentions on keeping what he had left of his prison family alive. He had some very intimate conversations with Carl where he opened up more about his past than he has with any other person. His interactions with Carol over the past three seasons have been just as if not more intimate, because they didn’t have that desperation- they were grown, cultured with attention and affection. His intimate moments with Rick, acknowledging what they need in each other and what they MEAN to each other, have been intense and recurring when his loyalty has been tested in the past few seasons and proven faithful. I don’t think it’s fair to say that Beth is the first person he’s allowed any kind of emotional intimacy with considering that the others are far more formative to his development as a character over the last few years.

    But I think what bothers me most is your assertion that I am reducing all his complexities to sexuality. If Daryl is gay, that has nothing to do with who he might or might not bang. It doesn’t. I might think Daryl is in love with Rick, I might write fic wherein they bang, but that’s not why I think Daryl’s gay— and more to the point, that’s not why I want Daryl to be gay.

    I want Daryl to be gay because I see that in his character, legitimately, as I’ve described. I want Daryl to be gay because it ADDS to his character, not subtracts from it. Queer Daryl growing up in an abusive household, where he’s beaten if he lets his wrists go soft. Awkward teenage Daryl being attracted to boys at school and not saying anything because of so many reasons- poverty, social classes, the bruises around his eyes, the scars on his back, the boy’s girlfriend, his brother’s derisive spit whenever Daryl speaks too soft or looks too long at a man. He still loses his mother. He still is beaten by his father. He’s still abandoned by the system, lost in the woods, assumed to be less than everyone else. Daryl has grown up denying his own identity in countless ways. At the beginning of the show, Daryl didn’t know he was a good man, and in many ways he still doesn’t. Daryl didn’t believe he was worth the loyalty and trust Rick put in him, or that he was anywhere near as good as him. Daryl thought for a very long time that he was meant to be like his father, so he would be. That entire scene where he lashed out at Beth, which was completely inappropriate, hinges on that: you think I am like my father, so I will be my father. Daryl barely knows who he is and it has taken four seasons— and 4b was a lot of him regressing back into thinking he was worthless, until Rick found him again— for him to reach a point where he has an awareness that he is a good person, a worthwhile person, underneath all of this pain. Daryl being gay is another layer to that, it fits in the exact same way. Daryl doesn’t know who he is, he thinks he is meant to be like his brother, like his father, so he shoves all of those feelings away and hides from them and launches himself out, violently, to cover them up. It makes sense from a literary standpoint as well as with the evidence given, so treating it as an unfair assumption is utterly baffling to me.

    It’s not about wanting him to make out with anyone. It’s not about purely his sexuality. It’s about how his sexuality has had a part in his identity, how it is valuable to his development as a person, how his acceptance of himself includes not just of his moral code but of his identity as well. The point of a gay character is not that they’re gay, and I’ve never said that, and I hope what I’ve written about Daryl shows that I don’t think that.

    But as a bisexual woman, watching media, you cannot ask me to watch Daryl Dixon exist and not interpret him as queer, and not find a kind of beauty and VALIDITY in that. Daryl is the same person he has always been, but the same person he has always been could be queer. Why is that anything but wonderful?

    First I love your fics, I dislike the essay. Let me explain myself. While Daryl could be gay, bi, asexual or something in between, it hasn’t been showed, you have seen something and interpreted as a sexual inclination and I kind of hate when characters are defined as gay for not other reason that they are out of the norm. I think Daryl as been very traumatized he understand violence and confrontation, but is very uncomfortable responding to kindness....
    Anonymous

    [cont.] Yes, I agree that family is very important in the show, I think they love the many ways of family and I think Rick’s absolute dedication to the children and the group is part of the reason why Daryl (and Michonne) respect and value him as much as they do. And Rick is family, Daryl has say so before, but I really don’t think he wants to replace his brother, a difference from Rick that had put Daryl in Shane’s place while Shane was still breathing, sure crazy but alive.

    [cont.] In that respect Merle and Daryl were irreplaceable for each other. Merle was a monumental asshole but he died to protect his brother’s home because ultimately Daryl was mre important to him that anything. For Rick the group is what matter the most while the individuals are replaceable, all but Carl

    [cont.] Personally I hate the unrequited factor you put in a relationship that is already a little unbalanced.

    Hello! And thank you for the compliment about my fics. I’m not sure I understand your dislike of my meta on the subject, though- is it because I present it as a legitimate interpretation of the material, instead of outright stated fantasy as fanfiction is?

    I feel like I went into, in my essay, valid reasons why I don’t read Daryl as bi, asexual, and definitely not straight. You’re correct in that his sexuality hasn’t been shown in the show, but I also think that the absence of that combined with Norman Reedus’ off-camera commentary on Daryl’s character does say something. The absence of evidence of everything can I think justifiably be interpreted as evidence FOR something. His rejection of Carol’s advances are just one of many reasons why I take that as evidence of his lack of interest in women, sexually, as is his lack of action towards any available females of an appropriate age throughout the entire series (in my meta, I also mentioned that there are very few other male characters who do this). I don’t view Daryl as gay solely because he’s not like the other guys though— it’s a cumulative thing. It’s the absence of female history, when we know a lot about his familial history. It’s the absence of engaging with females sexually and romantically now. It’s the way he bonds with male characters over female characters and puts much more trust in them. It’s the suggestive post-coital cigarette he and Martinez share in season 3. It’s a lot of different things, and it’s a valid interpretation- and I think it’s more valid than the idea that he’s straight, which I feel is at odds with a lot of the reasons I think he’s gay.

    So if I’m reading it right, you feel that Daryl didn’t respond to Rick’s “you’re my brother” in like because it would have felt like replacing Merle? I think that’s a valid possibility, it’s just one I disagree with. He has, in some ways, already replaced Merle’s old place in his life, though not his importance: when he tells Merle he’s going back where he belongs in S3, he chooses Rick and to be closer to Rick than he is to his brother. It doesn’t mean that Merle isn’t invaluable to him, it means that he’s recognized Merle isn’t good at BEING that, and Daryl deserves better.

    The notion, though, that Rick finds everyone in the group replaceable is I think undone completely by what Rick said to Daryl. The reason Daryl fills Shane’s hole ( l o l ) in Rick’s life is because Shane proved he didn’t deserve it and forcibly tore himself off of him. Daryl, on the other hand, has earned that trust and familial respect and yes, absolutely, love. Rick wouldn’t say “you’re my brother” if he didn’t love Daryl, even in a non-romantic way. He would have clapped him on the shoulder, said “it’s good to have you back.”

    He would not have thought, as Andrew Lincoln said in an interview, “it was worth going through that because we found you.”

    I think Rick’s words were born out of love, more familial than romantic, so I don’t view the moment as unrequited in a familial respect. I think the idea you presented, that Daryl held back from responding because it would feel strange with his own brother dead, is a good one, but I don’t agree with it. To my reading, Daryl’s lack of response goes back to how VERY MUCH he values Rick, more than anybody in the group. I think watching the show and interpreting Daryl as queer is completely valid, since there is literally no reason to think otherwise, and “straight until proven gay” is an incredibly harmful and heteronormative mindset to go around life with. Personally, I see Daryl as gay regardless of whatever happens with Rick, but also think Daryl’s feelings are focused entirely on Rick.

    As a result, I think Daryl’s response to Rick is held back because he doesn’t know what to say.

    Does he say, “you’re my brother, too”?

    Does he say, “I’d die for you, I’d do anything for you”?

    Does he say “I love you”?

    Does he say “I’m in love with you”?

    To my mind, in that moment, I think he said all of that at once behind closed lips and sad eyes, and took what he knew he was given- the familial love that he never had, given freely and absolutely, all-consuming, making him feel Home.

    You do know it's very possible to have a brotherly/familial relationship without being gay right? Daryl has flirted with Carol (and possibly Beth, though that is up in the air). Just because he's close to Rick or trusts him doesn't mean he's gay for him. Rick went through the effort to go back and save Daryl's brother. Daryl can relate to Rick. Daryl prefers not to get close to anyone because he has trust issues. He could be asexual as well. Daryl doesn't want to be alone but he's afraid to lose

    [cont.] people. Male characters should be able to interact in a familial way without it meaning their gay. That just goes back to the whole gender roles and “men can’t show emotion” bs. Rick calls him his brother. Daryl calls Rick family. It’s just that. Especially considering that it’s the apocalypse, people will try to bond with who they can trust. I have no problem with having a gay male character, but in my opinion, Daryl is definitely not gay, at least, not for Rick.

    There are a couple really problematic things in your message that I want to address before I get to the meat of your statement. Firstly: “it’s very possible to have a brotherly/familial relationship without being gay, right?” Yes, yes it is. AND IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE to have a very close relationship without being straight. I read his relationship with Carol as very close and very familial, and not sexual, because I think Daryl is gay. I address the validity of Daryl as asexual in my essay which I’ve linked at the bottom and I encourage you to read.

    Then you say “Male characters should be able to interact in a familial way without it meaning they’re gay.” Please read my essay linked at the bottom of this- I think Daryl is gay for LOADS of reasons, not just because of how he looks at Rick. And your statement implies that male characters are currently being held back from interacting closely because they’re always having to be gay. Please prove this by counting for me the number of gay male couples we have had so far on Walking Dead and other mainstream popular shows as opposed to the popular prevalence of “bromances” and the constant no homo being pulled rather than gay male characters being allowed to exist.

    I think Rick’s intention towards Daryl is brotherly/familiar, but I completely and totally disagree with you about Daryl being straight? I’m bewildered where you got that notion. Where did Daryl flirt with Carol? I watched the entire show and I saw a close bond and a clear rejection of all of her romantic overtures. Where the hell did Daryl flirt with Beth? I saw a damaged, injured, troubled man lashing out violently and immaturely at an equally immature teenage girl and then focusing his attention on helping her to survive and be happy, like he did with his whole prison family, concentrated into one person. There was nothing romantic there. The only thing that could be construed as anything romantic is the handholding, which was initiated by Beth in an emotional moment of shared grief, when Daryl needed comforting too. I don’t know about you, but when I’m standing at gravesides, I hold hands to be close to someone and to mourn, not to mack on them.

    I don’t think Daryl is “gay for Rick”,  I think Daryl is gay. I think even if the show doesn’t ever broach the topic of Daryl’s sexuality, he’s gay. Even though I doubt Rick/Daryl would become a thing because my reading, in show, is that Rick is straight, that doesn’t make Daryl less gay. 

    Daryl is one of VERY few male characters who has never told a story about an ex girlfriend or revealed an interest in a female in his former life. Daryl has never shown any desire to become sexually intimate with a female character. Daryl has never, in the entire show, done anything to make you think he’s straight, so why is that your assumption? Does someone have to declaratively state their sexuality is not straight in order for you to consider it a possibility? That’s problematic about your approach to media and culture on a number of levels, but also in your reading of Daryl’s character. It’s obvious from how he responds to hallucinatory-Merle in “Chupacabra” that Daryl’s gender presentation and sexuality were and still are targets for attack in their household. Daryl’s not gonna come out or be forthright about it like Tara is because that’s not who he is or how he was raised. But is Daryl a gay character— and more to the point, is reading Daryl as gay COMPLETELY, EQUALLY, IF NOT MORE VALID than reading him as straight?

    Yes. Review the material, from Season 1 to now, and approach it from a non-heteronormative perspective. Stop assuming people are straight, watch the show with the full awareness that Daryl could be either straight, gay, bi, whatever and then let me know if you really don’t see it as a legitimate interpretation of the character.

    Dude, did you met Daryl's brother? In fact, Rick calling him his brother is not a good think considering Shane used to be Rick's brother and everybody knows how that turn out. It's AMC, they don't have problems featuring awesome gay characters when they want to.
    Anonymous

    I don’t understand this comment, lol. Are you saying Daryl’s not gay? Because I have an essay on the subject I’d like you to read explaining why it’s a perfectly valid interpretation of his character. All complaints about representation in the show aside, they ARE featuring an awesomely gay character— I’m just saying that it’s more than one, Tara AND Daryl. More than one gay survived the zombie apocalypse and there’s been textual support for reading Daryl as queer since the first season so I don’t think there’s any reason whatsoever to dismiss the idea.

    As for dismissing the “you’re my brother” line as not a good one for both characters, I’m confused as to why you think we’re watching the same show. The importance Daryl places on family has been underlined since the very beginning. Merle was at least emotionally abusive, and Daryl’s father physically and emotionally abusive, but his connection with the other characters serves to highlight what family should be instead of what family is- his upbringing and Rick’s fallout with Shane are not supposed to be representative of positive family models; that’s why the rest of the group is there. He looks at Rick and how Rick treats and values family, how he prioritizes them, and to Rick there is nothing more intimate he can offer than to reassure Daryl that he is a part of his. With Daryl, family has always been blood before anything else- up to the point where he turned away from Merle and went back to the group. The group where Glenn told him that Daryl was family, where Rick told him he was family, and they treated him the way family is supposed to be treated. He looks at Merle and tells him he’s going “back where he belongs”, which means that Daryl has learned the difference between blood family and what family should mean and he’s chosen the latter. So Rick acknowledging him in that way- Rick giving him the most intimate connection he can think of, that’s huge to Daryl and there’s no possible way to understate its value, much less say what you were. To an extent, Walking Dead is about chosen family as much as it is about choosing what kind of a person you are as much as it is about the struggle to keep to that choice and not lose yourself in chaos.

    tl;dr Daryl’s queer, at the very least; it’s been shown countless times that Rick is the person at the prison whom Daryl values most; Rick telling Daryl he is family is offering Daryl everything Rick can think to and Daryl will hold onto it with both hands; I like taking all of the above to add to my interpretation that Daryl’s feelings for Rick are above and beyond familial, but he will take everything Rick gives with open arms. He will always take what Rick chooses to give him. That’s what earned love does.

    my brother told me TWD would never make Daryl Dixon gay because of the fan backlash that would happen, and i said TOO LATE, plus i'm pretty sure TWD is the kind of show that does whatever the fuck it wants
    Anonymous

    yeah a ha ha haaaaaa TOO FUCKING LATE. they’ve already made Daryl contradiction after contradiction, made him so beautifully complex, and they’ve taken so many of their cues for his development from Norman’s input that I think that the most obvious thing now is that they’re not going to do ever do anything obvious with him.

    I read that Nylon magazine interview where he said that quote about Daryl not falling in love with who you expect; and that was the same week I saw “Still”, and when the only name Daryl could get out- the only sound he could bear, the only death he needed to acknowledge and struggled to accept that was driving him into the fucking ground— was “Rick”. and when he said that, my heart fucking shattered, because the sound of his voice cracking over Rick’s name like it’s the only thing that matters is too much to bear. before that, I was I think mostly conjecture and headcanoning with a nice big heaping pile of suspicion with a fuck-ton of a reason behind it, but now?

    no, there’s no question about it anymore in my opinion. I would put actual cash money on Daryl Dixon being gay, on Norman Reedus intentionally playing him as queer, and I’m in love with it.

    straight people who look at you in bewilderment when you mention a gay ship: well of course you do.

    you’ve never spent a lifetime scrounging for the breadcrumbs of subtext that would let you think you were represented.

    you’ve had the luxury of having your romances spelled out. you’ve had the privilege of watching a show and knowing that when two characters make eye contact, it Means Something. You know if a woman and a man are close, romance is a tactile possibility if not an assured outcome; that their meaningful moments and their small touches all are part of a beautiful romantic bigger picture because your storyline almost always supports it.

    they will take your two straight characters, set them in a romantic backdrop. they will give them romantic lighting, and swelling music. you have the pleasure of knowing that when they say “I love you” they mean it only one way.

    queer fans are starved. we’re given breadcrumbs, one character if any, and gay jokes if anyone stands too close. we watch our shows and we have been trained, cultured to look for the subtext, because we know it is in many cases all we will get. when our ship stands near each other, hell yeah we seize onto it. when they touch, you can bet your life we’re watching, to see how long their fingers linger. how long their eyes stay fixed on each others’, if their lips part, if their heart is breaking. if they say “I love you”— or you’re my brother, or there’s something i’ve always been meaning to say— we hear it, and we hear it in all the ways we know it could be meant. we seize onto it with both hands and gasp and are made breathless by the implications of this love.

    and then straight people look at us, and they make a face of disbelief, and they say “there’s no reason to think that”

    of course you don’t think so

    of course

    but to us, these romances are no less real than the ones framed with the right music and the right lighting and the guarantee of a completion or a rooftop kiss in the rain. we just have had to spend our lives learning to see that the kiss happened out of sight.